If you are in the sixties o more 9 mm is the best choice. Yes, Alvin York killed seven Germans with seven rounds of .45 ACP ball, starting from almost 100m out, in front of superior officers who went out afterwards and kicked the dead Huns in the head before they made their reports. Just one article about that here: http://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2015/07/08/u-s-military-makes-monumental-shift-hollowpoint-pistol-ammunition/. Theres been many people shot and continue. The Glock 17/19 could be a possibility as well, though, as there are plenty of them already in the inventory, and the P320 also seemed destined for the FBI (which had similar requirements), but they suddenly settled on the Glock at the last minute. While psychological factors incapacitate more assailants than physiological factors, they are also the primary reason for a failure to incapacitate. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rwYqGmVvzQ, http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1165386, http://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&f=91, http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=34714, http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008Intl/Roberts.pdf. Some bullets are so fast, they dont deliver the force of the bullet. I dont plan on using a handgun for long distance shooting. For this reason, some dismiss magnum rounds altogether and sing the praises of the S&W .40 round, which supposedly combines the best features of the .45 ACP and the 9mm. Shooting light steel target that doesnt allow penetration at all vs a human body is a little bit different. I am former law enforcement from Florida, depending on the situation I actually carry both my Ruger American 9 mm and the Ruger American 45 caliber ACP oh, not at the same time lol. Developed in the early 1960s, the .223 round was first used in Vietnam. Like John Saunders, I also used a M1D scoped. We were allowed to carry bone stock ( night sights ok. weapon purchased at our own expense ) Smith and Glock 21s ( It was the 2nd Gen Glock era. Due to the heavy load some people with both types of weapons had malfunctions as the slide was moving too fast causing failure to feed. Not to suggest that a skilled shooter (and/or soldier or Marine) couldnt shoot it, but almost anybody is going to be faster with a 9mm in their hands. And they call themselves a forensics expert.. I like a simple .45 +P with a lot of lead. Here is the money point: assume you will only get ONE shot at the perp. Skorpion Ammo Type: 9 mm. In fact you are 1000 rounds short. No matter what caliber you are carrying, just remember that one of the keys to shooting through auto glass (whether from within or outside the vehicle) is to shoot as much as possible through the same hole. Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement. Let us know your thoughts in the comments below! Were they not the agency who got thier asses handed to them that created this debate in the first place? For the better part of a decade, working on the streets in 2 of the 4 most dangerous neighborhoods in these United States, (per semi-annual FBI Violent Crime statistics) shot distance and circumstance can NOT be accurately anticipated. IMHO, everyone of us is different in all ways from head to toe and mostly including the brain and fitting a handgun is different for all. WebSTI Tactical. Damage: 22. Tests show that while it travels at 1,154 feet per second at 500 yards, slower than the .223 at that distance, the AKs bullet can deliver 370 foot-pounds of force, more than the AR. For the sake of interest, some indicators of the penetrative powers of various types of ammunition follow: Virtually all calibres (excepting air weapons) will penetrate the tread or side wall of a motor vehicle tyre. 9mm capacity! While massive trauma to the circulatory system can cause incapacitation, this takes time. It is a very real possibility and one that should be considered. I also am a NRA Certified Instructor and gunsmith in Colorado. And let us not forget the adrenaline factor. Because size is king? Remember, people dont have health bars. I got it cheap and after using it and putting a few hundred rounds without any malfunction and also being very accurate. Penetration of this length and the tissue, blood vessel and organ damage/destruction that follows is vital to circulatory collapse. Glad you are doing well. I am old school. If it works for our troops no matter where it is made thats the one we want. We had competant and caring armorers and shooting instructors ( These guys gave a fuck and went out of their way for you ). A bigger hole is better than a smaller hole and more holes is better than one hole. I read this after selling my XD Tactical in .40 to a friend and then settled on .45 GAP. The beautiful country in south east Asia. I immediately thought, I think Ive been shot. Took about 1Min until the shock yielded to the pain. That said today I only carry my 5th gen Glock 19. Going on 7 years Law Enforcement here with a rough Dept. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. Interesting. I enjoyed reading all of this info but didnt once read the real reason the .45 was originally better at stopping than the .36 cal. Scalise, a Republican from Louisiana whose condition has been upgraded to serious, suffered broken bones, ruptured blood vessels, and shredded internal organs. But according to the FBI (First Bunch of Idiots) it isnt possible. A .223 is just 55 grains. After reading your article, I had to 1.) They should have several different handguns depending on the shoot I myself at 6 to 200 pounds and have a large chance by far the best pistol Ive ever shot is the 1911. Wounding one enemy combatant to take three out of the fight (or at least two) was a good argument when we were facing civilized enemies such as the Germans in WW II. The projectile, a 7.62 x 39 bullet, hit the House majority whip with between 370 and 1,550 foot-pounds of force. WebAs shown in Fig. Frank K. Seems to me that when using the same style bullet in the 45 and 9mm the 45 would still beat the 9 in stopping power. We do, however, have reliable information from labs with regard to how much tissue rounds destroy. I daily now carry a 9 mm. I have handgun hunted for over 25 yrs and enjoy it immensly, and also do a lot of reloading.IF a guy wants to carry a 45 or 9 or anything else and are comfortable and proficient with either, then why not? Ret. Not everyone can adequately conceal a full-sized Colt 1911. My $.02. Let the Craftsman pick his tools! I have a rock island arms 1911 45, a Walther p22 22cal., A heritage rough rider 22 6 inch barrel. #firearmtraining. When someone has a weapon to defend themselves the adrenaline factor comes in play on both sides but the one with the tracing and experience should come out ok and most of the time the neighborhood thug doesnt have the training etc. John I agree, the Browning Black Label in 380 ACP is a superb gun. Also, the 9mm cartridges are less expensive. With the way things are going today I decided it was time to carry again. But you have no proof that the .45 ACP will work that much better. Handgun and Patrol Rifle Instructor, a graduate of Trident Concepts Concealed Carry Instructor course, and a Modern Samurai Project Endorsed Instructor. LE, south LA and Watts for 8 1/2 out of 15 years. That has been the best comment so far. Since the mid-2000s, gunmakers catering to consumers who increasingly buy weapons for self-defense have produced fewer of the small-caliber handguns like the .25 or .32, and more of those 9mm and larger. The National Rifle Association is one of the most powerful special interest groups in America. With the 45 2 at most. Handgun wounds include the first three of these factors, but generally do not include the fourth. That still dont make them experts but better than the average person. Im not going to begin to discuss the variables between the two calibers and cartridge designs but statistics released from DOJ shows that larger cartridges are more effective at stopping Humans per round on target. I doubt a .45 would have allowed that.also know a guy who took 10 shots of 9mm at close range in a robbery and survived and is healthy and surfs, shooter must have had terrible aim. Ask deerhunters. This post reported that the FBI Training Division had reevaluated which handgun round was best for FBI agents and reached the following conclusions: The 2014 FBI Training Division Report stated that the FBI had chosen the 9mm bullet (147 grain Speer Gold Dot G2) for FBI agents to carry because, The 9mm provides struggling shooters the best chance of success while improving the speed and accuracy of the most skilled shooters.. Unless they needed concealablity. People kill people. But we generally would refer to them as cartridges or rounds as a bullet is just the projectile portion encased in a cartridge and loaded into the firearm. I carry a Glock 19 with 15+1 and am quite crafty with it. But for those of us that like to aim and make good hits Ill take the 45 as a primary with a compact 9 as a backup. Gramins was using a 13+1 capacity Glock 21 in .45 ACP. Unfortunately, there is no valid, scientific method of analyzing actual shooting incidents. there is no substitute for Cubic Inches. Been involved in violent life or death confrontations for well over 40 years. , Hodgkinson was armed with a rifle that shot 7.62 caliber bullets. I like it and am very comfortable pulling the trigger in as high stress of a situation as training allows. quick defense trigger and has an extended 17rnd clip. In those 53 years, weve built a reputation as one of Texass most trusted firearms dealers, and we did it in a state where sellers of used guns are almost as common as oil wells and prime rib. Either will get the job done for protection. So they fudge the data. Other than for general interest, this type of test is of little use in the scientific examination of firearms-related situations. Im 73 yoa. Though the patient survived and only had a small wound, he suffered extensive contusions throughout his lungs. Copyright 2023 Damage: 23. What more and more people are choosing is CAPACITY. If you want to test that theory in a real world environment. He is the author of two published books on deadly force and an upcoming book on supervisory and municipal liability in law enforcement. Should be Marine Commanders Have.. Each of the operators has his own preference. If you take it in the field and get it dirty, see how easily serviceable that weapon is then. Steel BB or 0.177" lead pellet at 200 ft/s will detach part of the coloured portion (iris) of a human eye leaving what appears to be a second pupil. Talk to someone that has been shot with a 9mm FMJ round and ask them what it feels like and contrast that to someone that has been shot with a 45 ACP FMJ round. 7.62 isn't pistol ammunition though. A tool yes but not a valid substitute. When the weather is colder and requires a jacket or coat, I carry my Glock 30s, extra mag for either. That use the same ammo is the way for me. As a non operator and someone who cant get to the range much an article I read made sense to me as simple as it may seem. Work scenarios out in your head before they happen. If you use .22 mag, muzzle flash is pronounced and may have some fear factor with its use. Thats good, it is always good for people to find what works best for them. A 4 inch Redhawk 45 colt loaded with 24 grains of H100 under a 335 grain Cast performance sledgehammer should be good against the largest carnivore Todd. ), and I can buy twice the ammo and get twice the practice. For example, a shot through the side of the body must penetrate between 10 to 12 inches to hit the heart. This is accomplished through simple physics; a larger bullet imparts more force into its target than a smaller one. In most courtrooms today a good lawyer will take you apart for shooting a home invader more than one time if you hit him with the first shot in other words you wounded him with the first shot why did you keep shooting? Finally, someone mentions what type of ammo is being used. Ricochet off. Do you really think that all of SOCOM is using rifles and SMGs, and the Marines are using pistols? Clothing fibers can wrap the nose of a projectile, preventing expansion. Now marine I hope your watching now instead of using glock 19 in a 9mm counterpart here is a better suggestion why dont you use a glock 21 4th gene to insure ur fellow colleges a better a faster on the spot accuracy with zero recoil it will enable them to be more successful in hitting targets. I have been hand loading my rifle and pistol ammo since 1975. So it should not come as a surprise that while the DoD's call for submissions for the new military Modular Handgun System XM17 contract doesn't specify a particular caliber or size, they will most likely settle on a new 9mm sidearm. and have shot that enough also to hit well with it. If you know firearms and know how to properly use them than the caliber shouldnt matter. My opinion is he got shot in the living room and after he kicked the door in. Concurr on 45 and m14 . Scratch expensive 45s. cause if they did there would not be so many innocent victims being injured and killed all because they couldnt hit the side of a barn with a soft ball from 5 ft. A century? Elton Makin was a US marine in World War One. In September 1918 American troops had overrun the German front line, and he was sent back carrying a Anything else is a simple failure to prepare. The idea that a bullet has the power to knock an adversary to the ground is a Hollywood myth. Look for a box or option labeled Home Page (Internet Explorer, Firefox, Safari) or On Startup (Chrome). All rights reserved. 10..again 10 rounds landed on target. Heres what they found it did to those enemies bodies, as republished in, Bullets can also increase the surface area that transfers energy to targets by expanding, as in the case of hollow-point rounds. So anyone reading this, you should check this gun out. Thats why were here right? It is really scary to think that a jury would put any weight behind what he says knowing that the rest of my life will be determined by the crap spewed forth from him. Its why neck-down cartridges for .223 are even used. Which might had something to do with losing the Revolutionary War, where Americans used guerilla tactics. 158 gr 0.357" Magnum semi-jacketed bullet will penetrate outside skin of car door and sometimes just penetrate the inside skin. It has less recoil, is less expensive and its penetration apparently compares favorably with the larger-sized rounds. However, caliber is at least as important and should not be ignored when choosing a weapon. career to carry a Glock 9mm. The original design and purpose of the 1911 45, was perfect for its knock down power. But it is no longer valid against todays terrorists, and the mindset they fight with. Modern ammunition changes the field somewhat. His career began as a special agent with NCIS. I notice one parameter that seems to be ignored. interacts online and researches product purchases In that encounter, Sgt Gramins shot the suspect 14 times, any one of 6 of those would have almost certainly been fatal wounds. Shot placement is the deciding factor. To answer the question which is better 9mm or 45APC. Then they changed to .40S&W (once they realized how difficult it was for some agents to handle). Trauma surgeons, the guys actually opening up peoples chests and trying to put them back together, say otherwise. I have a Ruger American 9 mm full size and its twin in a 45 caliber, I will say yes the 45 caliber is a larger round with more in a way push behind it, but I totally agree with the proper placement of that round when firing is the deciding factor. at 2,690 feet per second, and slows to 840 feet per second at 500 yards. An entrance wound is surrounded by a reddish-brown area of abraded skin, known as the abrasion ring, and small amounts of blood escape through. Sign up now to get our latest stories and eye-opening briefings. The bullet had disintegrated his spleen and torn his aorta. You get Into a real shooting scenario. Hollow points also create a larger temporary cavity. However, in a self-defense situation, the object isnt to kill your attacker; its to end their ability to cause you harm as quickly as possible. The main reason I now have a 9 mm is that at the time, I could not find a small enough 45 that was double action. Its disturbing to me that we give up performance for comfort. Robert MacNemerra knew nothing about firearms but his decision that the AR-15s chrome lined bore and chamber was a needless waste of money brought a whole lot of grief to a whole lot of people. Give me a break!! Only two factors are within your control: the location of the wound and the amount of tissue destroyed. It enables struggling shooters to attain better weapon control/shot placement, and permits skilled shooters to be faster and more accurate. It has something to do with occasions where they might carry concealed: Since last year, MARSOC has purchased and fielded 1,654 Glock 19s because Raiders needed a reliable secondary weapon that could be used for both a concealed carry profile and a low-visibility profile, and having one approved pistol for all special operators saves money, he said. Only high-velocity rounds (those with an impact velocity of 2,000 feet per second or more) with soft or hollow points reliably offer fragmentation. It might be bigger, but bigger isnt always better. We put our money behind the 9mm round fired by an extremely well-trained marksman carrying a Glock 19, Mannweiler told Marine Corps Times. Like cars and motorcycles its all a matter of preference for each individual.God Bless America and May God keep us safe so we dont ever have to be put in a situation to have to find out. Americans have this impression, I think, that comes from watching too many old movies, that a bullet fired from a handgun is supposed to flip the bad guys ten feet into the air, if not disintegrate them altogether and leave a smoking pair of haji sandals on the pavement where they were. Riley, love your artical. He also competes in USPSA and 3-gun competitions including numerous top-10 finishes at major matches and championships. If you cant always hunt effectively with it, is it big enough? In a statement, the FBI said he used a modified an SKS , the predecessor to the AK-47 which shoots the same bullets. Handgun velocities top out at around 1,500 fps at the muzzle. They ability to kill. The comparisons that I have seen conducted under those conditions seem to be pretty equal. Hit your enemy Quickly and Hes Dead. for every day carry. When you consider that almost all wounds from pistol caliber firearms were inflicted with SMGs, and when you consider that the most common German 9mm round issued during the war used a 90gr steel-core bullet loaded to do over 1400 ft/sec from pistol length barrels and 1800+ out of SMGs, and you compare this to the lumbering 230gr .45 caliber bullet that had less than half that velocity, it seems pretty plausible. The worse thing in a gunfight is running out of ammo, lol If you shoot well it shouldnt make a difference, especially with todays ammo types. Handgun Wounding Factors: A Caliber Effectiveness Guide for Self Defense and Body Damage, Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 International License, Best Self-Defense Caliber and Damage to the Human Body, Effectiveness of Bullet Wounds: How Gunshot Wounds Work, What Happens When You Get Shot: Damage to the Human Body. I am not sure why Ruger did not enter a weapon into the competition (like the new American pistol), but it could be that they looked at the RFP and made a determination that for some reason their pistols didnt fit the bill, or perhaps they decided it wasnt worth it. The difference Is not all soldiers are comfortable shooting the heavy recoiling 45 round. The fifteen round magazine contributes to the spray and pray thinking while the 1911 makes one concentrate on placing the shot. Ben, enlightened folk like you (and myself) understand that politics is ALWAYS at play on some level!! The 9mm leaves the muzzle on average at 1100 feet per second, NOT 1500. One other thing that is interesting to note, during a military engagement in which soldiers were issued .38-caliber sidearms, they found that the bullets were ineffective against the natives who were fond of using drugs before engaging in combat, and thus were numbed to the impacts of the bullets. I know .45 is a good SD round against the two legged threats. Missing it not an option. WebOP you had it right for penetration, 7.62 > 9mm > .45. I also have one that many people will call garbage. Practice, practice, practice. If a projectile has features that would cause it to expand upon impact, U.S. Army engineers Donald Carlucci and Sidney Jacobson explained in the textbook, Ballistics: Theory and Design of Guns and Ammunition. This is real life experience not article information research. Penetration, velocity, expansion, its all there. There are other similar handgun calibers, such as the .44 Special and the .45 Colt, and of course, the .357 SIG and 10mm Auto are Any gun between 9 mil and .45 caliber is fine if you can conceal it, and employ it quickly and with reasonable accuracy. Long time reloader right here as well which is why I couldnt believe when I read what I did in that other articleclearly someone that doesnt understand how these things work!! who proved the .45-caliber round has SO MUCH more knockdown power than the 9mm that it only requires one shot to incapacitate a threat? I am a colt Gvt. The old adage If its good enough for the military, its good enough for me. is just nonsense today. Fortunately or unfortunately I did shoot other humans with a 45 as close as 4 feet. If you wound one man, you take three men out of battle, one injured & two to care for him. This type of damage is known as permanent cavity. Just my thoughts and observations over the years. With bigger bullets, you will make bigger holes.. Chris Bartocci on a YouTube video explains why MARSOC went away from this 1911. AND.carry what YOU are comfortable and accurate with. I had a neighbor when I lived outside Fort Worth. The Smith & Wesson Model 26 is a target style revolver chambered in .45 ACP. High-velocity A bullet entering an enemys body does damage in two ways. Lethality by Caliber: Whats the Best Handgun Caliber For You? Open carry is fine where Im at. Its certain to elicit a wide variety of opinions and almost as likely to stir up an argument. Fired expert m14. The 45 acp caused significant damage to the human body. He watched MARSOC during a multi-national special forces competition, MARSOC couldnt compete with the low capacity 1911. Heck a well placed .22 in the head can get the job done. For me I have a 9mm that is concealable as well as my AR15 223 and like some of the others on here I would rather us my 15. However, for the civilian this is generally an impractical plan for a variety of reasons. Cheap crap. Have fun be safe and shoot often for sport and recreation and maybe someday to save your life and loved ones! By submitting your information, you agree to be contacted by the selected vendor(s) sledgehammer. In the words of Dr. Peter Rhee, a leading trauma surgeon and a retired Navy captain with 24-years of service, talking about all handgun wounds including .45 ACP and 9mm, he said, A Handgun wound is simply a stabbing with a bullet. This remained the norm in the FBI until May 2014. Just saying. Hollow point bullets are superior to round-nosed ones. Pistol calibers can work well if you dispense them from an SMG and send lots of them at a time. Copyright 2023 Training, muscle memory, nerves, etc dictate to me, that the harder hitting rounds are far more apt to keep me going home in the morning. True enough, but the dead enemy will not lie there or sit-up and shoot or pull the pin on a grenade on you as the wounded enemy might. I would make the same recommendation to all American law enforcement agencies who are considering a switch to 9mm handguns. So, the answer is simple, right? The role of the gun industry in Americas gun violence epidemic. With the continuation of the pussification of America we see so many in posotions of power making decisions that follow the continuation of that thinkinhg.